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Nutmeg Sporting Cartridge: EXCELLENT COMPANY!

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hayes1966
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Postby hayes1966 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:39 pm

I would like to hear from someone at Delta Arsenal on this ..

Meanwhile what does Nutmeg sell - is it new ammo or re-manufactured (reloads) like Williams?


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Postby GreggAndrews » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:39 pm

Our ammunition is remanufactured to quality standards exceeding that of factory ammunition. In BigJonBoy's case, unfortunately it is apparent that one slipped through (of which, he will be duly compensated for his trouble if he so chooses to).

We are not Williams Cartridge. We are professionals who utilize ACTUAL pistol powders, and choice components on top-shelf equipment that is not worn down beyond the point of repair. Likewise, we actually take the time to inspect our ammunition. We also take the time to test & chronograph the loads we develop as well. We also sell our ammunition in BOXES, as ammunition should come. We don't just push ammunition out of the door.

Unfortunately, I do not feel that I am at liberty to disclose information concerning the details of Browning-GP or his "good friend", as much as I would love to.

I for one am proud to say that I work for Nutmeg Sporting Cartridge. Hopefully, the character I have shown those of you I have met from this forum would be proof enough that I take my position as a loader with the utmost seriousness & concern for the customer because like all of you are, I am a shooter. I wouldn't feed any of my guns crap, nor would I expect any of you to feed yours absolute garbage.

My objective is to produce the finest ammunition that I am able to. I take great pride in my work, and it offends me that someone would so ignorantly say that I am a shill, or a fraud.


In the meantime, I respectfully decline posting any further in this thread.

I am more than happy to answer any questions through PM. :)

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Postby mu2bdriver » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:55 am

GreggAndrews wrote:Our ammunition is remanufactured to quality standards exceeding that of factory ammunition.


What are your metrics for making a statement like this? Do you test against factory ammunition? Do you have a Six Sigma project leader ensuring excellence? It seems like this thread is full of sizzle and lacking the steak.

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Postby BigJonBoy » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:11 am

Email with pics sent to ya greggandrews... 8)

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Postby CTSixshot » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:19 am

Just out of curiosity, was this malfunctioning .223 Remington ammo sized without the use of a case gauge? Until you realize the purpose of such a tool, it would be very easy to see where someone could run off bulk reloads that fail to chamber correctly.

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Postby hayes1966 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Andrew,

Just to clarify your statement - you had one bad round go through to BigJonBoy yet you yourself had an issue with a 9x18 round showing up in your box of 9x19.

I guess you need someone else inspecting the ammo before you package it.

And to be clear you are selling reloads, you can call in remanufactured ammo if you like but it is still reloads. You are using used cases for the ammo. Is the brass once fired or just range pick up supplied from various ranges in CT?

I did try to look at the website but under construction.
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Postby Rbadbadger » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:45 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels more inspection needed

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Postby punisher » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:19 pm

Wow,
What in the craziness is going on with this thread??
Its like a big circle jerk.
Im still confused but after rereaaaaaaddinngg it over and over ive come to the conclusion that confusios is right. :)
common sense is not common

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Postby GreggAndrews » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:44 pm

CTSixshot wrote:Just out of curiosity, was this malfunctioning .223 Remington ammo sized without the use of a case gauge? Until you realize the purpose of such a tool, it would be very easy to see where someone could run off bulk reloads that fail to chamber correctly.


The claim made by Browning GP was false. His "good friend" left his resume with us. This was after he helped run Williams Cartridge into the ground. He is a proven incompetent & hardly respected, if even acknowledged in the industry.

Likewise, case gauges are quite handy, and are an essential tool for ANYONE who reloads (not all cases size as nicely as others, and that's why they are inspected!).


What are your metrics for making a statement like this? Do you test against factory ammunition? Do you have a Six Sigma project leader ensuring excellence? It seems like this thread is full of sizzle and lacking the steak.


I have taken the time to tear down factory ammunition from a few different manufacturers. Charge weights varied by a substantial amount. Our main focus is CONSISTENCY. Lacking steak? Shoot our product next to factory. I guarantee the first thing that you would notice is that our ammunition makes consistent "Bang" noises.


And to be clear you are selling reloads, you can call in remanufactured ammo if you like but it is still reloads. You are using used cases for the ammo. Is the brass once fired or just range pick up supplied from various ranges in CT?


Our casings are NOT under any circumstances reclaimed public range fodder. All of the brass we get comes off of police ranges in GA & FL, all once fired factory. Reclaiming brass from a public range would not be wise.

Remember, most employees at Federal, Remington & Winchester are minimum wage lackeys. Nothing against them as anyone else that's only trying to make a living, but they go in, do their time, & cut a check. They really have no ties whatsoever to the product they put out the door, and ultimately, they are not responsible.

Just to clarify your statement - you had one bad round go through to BigJonBoy yet you yourself had an issue with a 9x18 round showing up in your box of 9x19.


Yes, in how long between incidents? Quite some time. Much longer than Federal has had between screwups, that's for certain.


Nothing is perfect. Unfortunately, as with ANY manufacturer of ANYTHING, things do slip through sometimes. Mercedes Benz, BMW, Lexus make lemons. RBC, Volvo Aero, Pratt & Whitney make substandard parts from time to time. Rarely, yes. But it happens.

Shit happens. When we have a problem, we take the initiative to correct it. Federal, Remington, Winchester, etc. give great lip service when defective product is found.

We take care of our customers. Again, this thread was started about my positive experience with Nutmeg as a consumer. I'm proud to say that I'm part of that.
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Postby mu2bdriver » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:07 pm

GreggAndrews wrote:
What are your metrics for making a statement like this? Do you test against factory ammunition? Do you have a Six Sigma project leader ensuring excellence? It seems like this thread is full of sizzle and lacking the steak.

I have taken the time to tear down factory ammunition from a few different manufacturers. Charge weights varied by a substantial amount. Our main focus is CONSISTENCY. Lacking steak? Shoot our product next to factory. I guarantee the first thing that you would notice is that our ammunition makes consistent "Bang" noises.


I'm glad we could pull you back into the conversation. While I will admit that I have never bothered to disassemble factory cartridges, I can't remember anytime I've been shooting that I had problems with a major manufacturer's ammunition to the point where I would doubt it's ability to work reliably in any of my weapons. I can saw that I've never had a mis-sorted case in any of my stuff. What do you consider to be a substantial amount and are you referring to bullet weight, powder charge, or something else?

I had one bad cartridge in a 50rd box from UMC where the neck appeared to be split - a hairline crack but you could feel it when you ran your fingernail across it. I e-mailed them, they called me back, I sent them a photo and lot number, they apologized profusely, and a few days later I got a 250rd mega pack and hat dropped off thanking me for continued support of their product and company. You make it sound like the major manufacturers don't care about the retail end-users but I've found their attitude to be completely the opposite.

I'm sure that your product is acceptable but I have no reason to leave my existing suppliers who have proven to me that they value my business.

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Postby newguy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:44 am

I had issue myself once with some Federal 30.06 that didn't go off. I emailed them and they sent me a whole new box. Honestly only company I have found that doesn't care if you have a issue with there ammo is Hornady. I had issues with some ammo from them. I go a O well email back from them they basically were like what do you expect sometimes bad ones slip thru. They didn't apologize or offer any credit.

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Postby Ballistic-Research-Labs » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:30 pm

My name is Paul Coburn, and I am the owner of Ballistic Research Labs.

I am a licensed Class 06 manufacturer of ammunition, and I have six NRA instructor certifications, including instructor for loading metallic cartridges, and shotshell. If you doubt this, send me a PM with your email address and I will send you scans of either.

My background. When I was in my 20’s (a looong time ago), I was a gunsmith for 7 years, and ran the reloading operation that supplied the Stamford, CT and Yonkers, NY Police departments with training ammo. At the time, we used hydraulic Star machines and ran about 2,000,000 rounds a year. I left it to go back to college and become an engineer and went into research. I did ballistic research at the Columbia University “High Energy” suite, on driving small particles of carbon at high speeds in a Helium atmosphere. I design Shadowgraph systems, and Schlieren optical systems for ballistic research.

There have been a lot of ugly things said about me in the last few days by “Andrew” (GreggAndrews)., and I thought I would take a few minutes to clear them up.

My friend (Browning-GP) who posted about Nutmeg’s lack of quality, is John Harper. John is one of 8 or 10 friends who I gave a “grand tour” to when I started at ProArms, in June of 2010.

ProArms was a sub-company of Delta Arsenal, at 82 Camp Street, in Meriden, CT, and was owned by Douglas Odishoo.

Dean presented himself to ProArms as an "expert" in reloading.

Because of Dean Blair's gross incompetence, ProArms no longer exists.

I started at ProArms in June 2010, and found a disaster - it was so bad that when I told a bunch of friends, they wanted to see for themselves.

On site, there were five Dillon Super 1050’s in place.

One was set up for 308/7.62, and had never been used.

One was set up to size and power trim .223/5.56. It was in poor shape and so out if adjustment, that it could not produce cases of proper dimensions to load.

It required an overhaul, cleaning, and reassembling, and the dies needed to be reset. The carbide sizing die (~$150) was so corroded from acid that it had to be thrown away - Dillon would not replace it.

There were three machines set up for 223/5.56. None of them could produce a usable round. All had problems stemming from carelessness and neglect – dies loose, loose (and missing) parts, loose die holder plates. It was no wonder that the ammunition had been returned.

The floor of the “polishing room” was covered with ground walnut shells, and cases. I read Dean Blair’s loading logs - they were filed with amateur “Experiments” with powders that were completely unsuitable for the loading that ProArms did.

There were two, one pound jugs of old Varget that someone had mixed some ball powder into, and they had to be scrapped.

But the best parts were:

A 55 gallon drum of straight phosphoric acid that Dean used for case cleaning - (NO ONE uses phosphoric acid to clean cartridge cases - it turns them dark green).

A 55 gallon drum (and a few 5 gallon pails) of 223 reloaded ammunition that had been returned. They wouldn't chamber in a rifle… and they were a mottled green color (from the phosphoric acid).

There was a kid named Zac working there. He was pulling down the rounds on an RCBS single stage press, to salvage what they could. At the rate he was going, it would cost (in labor) ~$6,000+ to pull it all down.

In total, there were two 223/5.56 carbide dies that were so badly corroded (from residual phosphoric acid), that they were thrown out – there was one digital caliper that had the depth end ground to a point (badly) so it was no longer useable for depth measurements.

The returned 223/5.56 ammo was close to 60,000 rounds, or ~1,500 pounds.

Now, one or two rounds might slip by (but shouldn't)... but how the hell does 1,500 pounds of defective ammo get out the door.

All they had for case measurement was a few $20 drop-in gauges, which were a waste of time and could not reveal the problems - no real gauges or headspace measuring tools, and it was obvious that none of the ammunition was test fired at intervals.

According to Douglass Odishoo (who owned ProArms and Delta Arsenal), Dean Blair claimed that he was engaged to the daughter of the man that owned Ensign-Bickford, the makers of Primacord. Douglas said that Dean told him that after he got married, his new father-in-law, the owner of Ensign-Bickford, was going to put $500,000 into the ProArms business. But the marriage did not happen, and when Douglass called the owner of Ensign-Bickford to continue with the investment, the owner said, “Who are you and what is ProArms???” Dean had played Doug Odishoo.

If that reads like a day-time soap opera, I can’t help it. That is what was given to me from the owner of Delta Arsenal and ProArms.

ProArms had a contract with Stag Arms, makers of machine guns and AR style rifles. ProArms ammunition was to be used to test the rifles and machine guns before shipment. When the problems with the ammo started, Stag Arms complained. Dean Blair told Stag Arms that it was a problem with their guns (???). Well this went back and forth a bit, and Stag Arms canceled the contract.

ProArms sold a whole bunch of Dean’s ammo to JoJo’s Gunsmithing in Southington, the top gunsmithing outfit in the state – ProArms had to take back all the ammo (with great embarrassment) that they sold to JoJo’s, and that was returned by customers, because it was defective…. If you are ever down to JoJo's Gunsmithing, ask them if the carry ProArms or Delta Arsenal ammo, and when they say no, ask them why - you will get the same story that you are reading here.

Now, John (one of the Jo’s in JoJo’s), went to high school with Doug when they were kids in New Britain, so now Doug was doubly embarrassed, cuz he lost another customer, and he lost a friend in the deal – JoJo’s will hardly talk to Doug.

When Doug opened Delta and ProArms, the purpose was to have a constant cash flow from ProArms ammunition sales to cover the empty months in gun and suppressor sales from Delta – it was a good business model.

But when ProArms went down, and Dean exited, Delta Arsenal was left with no fallback income, and their debts began to accumulate… a very badd thing.

I salvaged the bulk of the ~60,000 rounds in 8 days, and got ProArms back on their feet (quality wise), but it was impossible to repair the damage to the company image.

We could sell ammunition out of state, but none of the local Connecticut folks would forgive Doug for what had happened.

We struggled along but in the end, without a constant flow of local sales, ProArms was doomed.

Doug reached the point where he could not pay me, so left on Jan 4th 2012, and there was one gal that kept on crankin’ (with no supervision) until September of 2012, when ProArms closed for the last time.

I dropped off a resume’ at Dean’s (cuz he could REALLY use some experienced staff :) ).

When I went to his place, there was a young kid working there who was his go-fer and handle puller.

Dean had 6 Dillon 1050’s and a cement mixer for cleaning cases, a few odd bits and pieces, but it was very clear to anyone who has been in a busy ammunition re-manufacturer, that nothing was going on. There were no barrels of brass, no final stage polishers, no inspection tables, no nuttin’! The kid said that he was the only employee.

Dean called me the next day and said he was soooooooo busy, that he had already hired 8 people and didn’t need anyone else - I did not bring up the subject of the ammo at Doug’s, but Dean did - he then went into a 20 minute rant about how the “Englishman” at Doug’s forced him make the bad ammo.

It wasn't his (Dean’s) fault, because the Englishman told him that he didn't have to trim it.

(Trimming was not the problem - headspace and lack of proper sizing, plus the dark green mottled cases were the problem, and after all that time, Dean still didn't know what was wrong with it).

That is what happened.

Andrew claims that I worked for Williams and ran them into the ground:

"His "good friend" left his resume with us. This was after he helped run Williams Cartridge into the ground. He is a proven incompetent & hardly respected, if even acknowledged in the industry.”

Well, the truth is:

1 - I NEVER worked for Williams. I never even met John Williams!

2 - Since I never worked for Williams or had any other business relationship with Williams, it is hard to see how I ran them into the ground.

3 - No one ran Williams into the ground. Williams stopped production about 4 years ago, when the owner died from a massive heart attack while making ammo (if you gotta go, it’s not a bad way to go).

I spoke to the William’s family about a year ago, about getting the company started again, but the family was not sure what they wanted to do.
So, Andrew lied :( … he didn't make a mistake, he lied!!

Andrew said,

“We are not Williams Cartridge. We are professionals who utilize ACTUAL pistol powders, and choice components on top-shelf equipment that is not worn down beyond the point of repair.”

The Williams machines were not, “… worn down beyond repair”.

The Williams machines consisted of 6 Ammoload’s and two Scharch case processors. Ammoloads are similar to Camdex’s, and run about $25,000 to $30,000 each. Case processors run about $30,000 EACH, and Williams had two...

Any ONE of Williams machines was worth more than the whole Nutmeg operation put together.

All the machines were in fine condition and there are parts available if needed.

Andrew lied.


Andrew said,

“Likewise, case gauges are quite handy, and are an essential tool for ANYONE who reloads (not all cases size as nicely as others, and that's why they are inspected!).”

What the hell does that mean???

Andrew said,

“Our main focus is CONSISTENCY. Lacking steak? Shoot our product next to factory. I guarantee the first thing that you would notice is that our ammunition makes consistent "Bang" noises.”

“Makes constant BANG NOISES”? What the hell does that mean - is that Nutmeg’s version of quality control?

“Gee Dean, do you think that BANG NOISE was as loud as the last one?”

“I don’t know, Andrew, lets make another BANG NOISE and see if it sounds the same.”

At the sound level of pistols (~130 db) it is impossible for the human ear to tell the differences between sounds.

Andrew said,

“We are professionals who utilize ACTUAL pistol powders,”

There is no such thing as "ACTUAL pistol powders".

Anyone that knows anything about loading, knows that powders at the fast end of the spectrum, are used in pistols, shotguns and small rifles – so you can find Clays, Blue Dot, Unique, 296, Lil’gun, and most others, in use in all three types of firearms.

There is nothing magic about any one of them – they are just burning speed places on the progressive scale of powders.

I’ll let this part go, cuz I could go at it all night…

… but there is one more thing.

I drove up to Nutmeg today, to find out why Nutmeg and their employee were slandering me with false statements, like I "... ran Williams into the ground", when I never worked there.

There was a young kid outside the building, who was smoking. I went in and there was no one at Nutmeg.

So I left and the kid asked me what I wanted, and I replied that I was looking for someone at Nutmeg.

He introduced himself as Andrew and said he was an employee at Nutmeg.

So I said, “Yes, you can help me. I’m the guy you have been lying about and slandering on the internet for the last two days, and I want to know why you are doing it.”

Well, poor Andrew turned chalk white and got all tense, and damn near wet his panties - he said, “I’m sorry you feel that way”. I politely kept asking questions about what was going on, and all he could get out of his mouth, was "I'm sorry you feel that way."

So I asked him why he said I ran Williams into the ground”, and he said “My "SOURCES" told me”.

So I asked him, “Who are your sources”? And he answered, “My employer”.

I was calm and polite, but at this point, I thought he was really going to wet his pants.

Andrew is nothing but a helper/"gofer" at Nutmeg.

He talks like a tiger on line (so many keyboard tigers do), but face to face, he a scared, spineless little kid with no professional knowledge of loading.

Two hours after I got home, I got a call from the Winsted police department – seems that Andrew was soooo frightened by my face to face visit, that he had Dean call the police. All Dean had to do was call me and apologize and say it wouldn't happen again – but Dean is Dean and always will be Dean - no guts, no spine, no brains.

Am I gonna call Andrew and Dean spineless, yellow sneakered, wimpy, little children, Naw, I shouldn't say that (but if the shoe fits… ).

But I will say this – any of you guys that think Andrew is a big deal in loading, you are following a faker.

Andrew is a scared little kid - maybe 18 or 19 years old. He can't even buy bullets for his Hi-Point Carbine - his "Mommy" has to buy them for him.

Andrew is a "Helper Bunny" for Dean.

I was professionally loading ammo for police departments, probably before Andrew's father was born.

Dean's proficiency as a loader is mid amateur at best, and his integrity is totally absent.

.
Last edited by Ballistic-Research-Labs on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:09 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Postby hayes1966 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:01 am

newguy wrote:I had issue myself once with some Federal 30.06 that didn't go off. I emailed them and they sent me a whole new box. Honestly only company I have found that doesn't care if you have a issue with there ammo is Hornady. I had issues with some ammo from them. I go a O well email back from them they basically were like what do you expect sometimes bad ones slip thru. They didn't apologize or offer any credit.


With exception of bulk 22 ammo at Walmart I have never experienced any kind of misfire with and US made commercial ammo. A couple of years ago I bought 2000 rounds of surplus 9mm from RGUNS.NET. These went bang .. click .. click .. click .. click .. bang. I ended up pulling every round and reloaded them.
The only time I had a case split was on some 9mm egyptian stuff. I avoid any mil surplus from the Middle East, India or Pakistan.
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Postby mu2bdriver » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:25 pm

Same thing with me. It used to be that reloads/remanufactured/handloads/etc. were substantially less expensive than factory ammunition but the costs are so similar now that there really isn't a compelling reason to buy one over the other. I buy what works and have strong loyalties to companies which stand behind their products.

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Postby newguy » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:37 pm

hayes1966 wrote:
newguy wrote:I had issue myself once with some Federal 30.06 that didn't go off. I emailed them and they sent me a whole new box. Honestly only company I have found that doesn't care if you have a issue with there ammo is Hornady. I had issues with some ammo from them. I go a O well email back from them they basically were like what do you expect sometimes bad ones slip thru. They didn't apologize or offer any credit.


With exception of bulk 22 ammo at Walmart I have never experienced any kind of misfire with and US made commercial ammo. A couple of years ago I bought 2000 rounds of surplus 9mm from RGUNS.NET. These went bang .. click .. click .. click .. click .. bang. I ended up pulling every round and reloaded them.
The only time I had a case split was on some 9mm egyptian stuff. I avoid any mil surplus from the Middle East, India or Pakistan.


I been told to stay away from Any ammo from Middle East. I guess Turkish 8mm and POF 303 is real bad. So is the Iranian 30.06 that been floating around. I was kinda Ticked at Hornady for there o well tuff sh*t attitude


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